Given the current choices for PvP in a MMORPG i may resub to check this server out. Without parked bot buffs and ToA the 8v8 fights i used to like will be more fun and it won't be about how many times you've run ML*.

Looking forward to recreating my Mana Eldritch...

I dunno I was never that impressed with RvR (though I did not play post ToA) and the PvE in DaoC is pretty damned boring. WoW PvP seems to me to be as much fun as DaoC's and the PvE is much easier to stomach. Then again maybe it's just me.

The gameplay is definitely so much better.

But WoW PvP is completely pointless and after the novelty of the BGs will vanish you'll be bored to tears.

In DAoC there's still way more depth, possible interactions, purposes and guild involvement. I remember nostalgically the first year when a relic raid was an event that truly involeved the WHOLE server. And you cared.

What you care about in WoW? The endless grind to maintain your rank?

In DAoC you can still be part of something. WoW is just about the shoulder e-peens.

Bout sums it up...

Hmmm.... brings up another point:

How will lag be on the new server types in large rvr if all characters are making constant checks to the server to see if their buffs are still good? I'd imagine this could cause problems if you get 50 or 80 players together.

I dunno I have done a few relic raids way back when and aside from being a slide show half the time it really did not seem to require any real "skill" so much as numbers. Once they changed up the guards a bit so that taking keeps made a difference a bit of strategy went into play as well but still numbers were what counted.

The WoW BGs feel exactly the same way. Instead of strategically taking keeps you are capturing GY's and Bunkers and running gay little quests that while entertaining at first eventually just become another grind. WoW's PvP grind nets you items, DaoC's nets you abilities. Pretty much the same principle excepting of course that WoW's ranks decay. I don't see how the extra involvment comes into play in DaoC.

The biggest difference I see between the two is WoW's characters are much more interesting on an individual level. While in groups both game's characters can be fit into nice neat little roles, in the case of WoW they can exceed that role in solo play. WoW's characters just feel more versatile and interesting to play.

Its not like they are going to have to constantly check.... Hell, even a check once every few minutes would solve the issue. A realtime check is not even close to being needed.

Okay. Just think to the speed buff.

That's another area and group based effect. Stop wondering if it's possible or ont. It is.

I'm not discussing the gameplay here, I'm discussing the scope. DAoC has some scope, WoW has better gameplay (as I said).

The Relic Raids were EVENTS. For the whole server. I remember running to defend from the fucking Lyonesse. Of course you could not care, but in general you did, or you would just dislike the game. The value was there. PvP had a purpose in the sense that it involved the community. You felt a commitment.

It's not simply the persistent element but the fact that something was happening. In that precise moment.

In WoW nothing happens in a precise moment that you can care about. Nothing in a world is there to be used by the players actively.

In short, there's no "world" in "World of Warcraft". And the players do not have any impact on what is going on.

Btw, the same is happening in Eve-Online. Despite the gameplay sucks there is a "world". The players love the game because they can have an impact and because they can use tools to give the PvP a purpose and a depth. All the stories about the politics are coming from those possibilities.

Those possibilities that are unique to this genre and that WoW ditched mindlessly.

DAoC didnt take it quite far enough imo. It is still primarily a ladder system like WoW / GW.

Most people are all about the end-game or as some call in meta game, the big picture or what its about. EVE and Shadowbane come the closest to a meaningful design (that I'm aware of) but both are very lacking in other areas.

Many will argue that Shadowbane's end game was designed a little too harsh and DAoC's was designed too easy. As mentioned many, many times... in SB you spent months to build a town to have it torn down overnight. In DAoC you never really owned the castle, it was yours for a short period of time and if it was overran you never really cared. You just took it back.

In the end, to me, DAoC ended up being a ladder system, it was what MOST people cared about more than the actual relics or castles they controlled. That coupled with a direct out of game webased ladder makes it more akin to an FPS than a MMORPG and disenfranchises many players overtime.

If DAoC had removed the ladder system and gave more meaning to the in-game results of pvp, if you really had to fight for your territory and the control of territory meant something (IE resources, mob spawns, whatever) it would have had longer staying power.

Blizzard is aware of it and are implementing GY control among other things... to me, the problem is that game has no fucking soul and the community is total shit. At least on Laughing Skull it was full of kids and Retarded WalMart door greeting personell. I am fairly confident that every backwoods, inbred, "I have 50 bucks to spend on a new vidja game" asshole came to our server and by the looks of the main-boards, we were not the only one.

Darkfall and Dark and Light are coming close to (imo) the holy grail of PvP MMORPG design... if either ever even come close to release....

Hmm....

In DAoC, it comes down to population again. With extreme population disparities, relics changed hands in either the "huge zerg overrunning everyone" or the alarm clock raid.

More balanced servers could do some interesting things.

On Pel, had raid leaders who would try actual strategy. One night, snuck half the hibs mains right next to the mid relic keep. Then logged on alts to make an attempt on the alb relic. When we wiped there, logged back to mains and immediately hit the mid relic. By the end of the night, almost everyone with a 50 was in a frontier trying to figure out what the fuck was happening.

Or there was the massive drives for keep advantage to attempt the relic. Had alot of fun a couple days in defense. Defenders hold back and delay relic force, while a couple of lightning groups take back the keeps to get your NPC defenders back online.

Actually, taking relics and keeps does have a significant impact on your realm. Relics provide bonuses to spell/melee damage depending on the relic, and the amount of keeps your realm has determines if you have access to Darkness Falls (which used to be the best place for exp and decent gear before ToA). The problem now is with ToA bonuses, MLs and artifacts/uber items ... it makes the impact of relics negligable. And better drops and exp can now be found in newer zones making Darkness Falls a virtual ghost town.

However, the new non-ToA server will give new life to relics and Darkness Falls. There is also speculation that the upcoming expansion "Darkness Rising" will revamp the Darkness Falls area and make it much more a part of the game than it has been for the past 1.5 years. This will entice more people to RvR in order to gain access to the dungeon.

Only time will tell if the new servers will save DAoC. Although, we could see a huge shift of people from the normal servers moving to the new servers, thus creating larger population imbalances on the normal servers and possibly more clustering.

I think the new direction of the game is a good one, even though it is probably too late to gain back the majority of lost subscribers. Reading the interview from Dave Rickey, it sounds like he was hoping to take the game in this direction back before ToA was released and could have possibly retained alot of the 30k+ subscribers that have left since ToA.

Nothing will "save DAoC." DAoC is fading out like every other MMO out there will, as advances and evolution in gameplay increasingly alienate a game from the mainstream. When your player base gets nice and tired of you, the new shiney comes out and scoops up the disaffected.

If Mythic had made no ToA, they would have most likely been in the same situation. This time, the players would be bitching about the game being boring, or that there was nothing new to do. And then would have fled to WoW.

DAoC is firmly on the path to niche-dom.

I agree but this isn't unavoidable. If the game had addressed its flaws and improved its strengths more aggressively it could have maintained its popularity. And grow from that point.

The point is that the whole "monthly fee" is becoming a huge obstacle for every mmorpg. It's becoming easier and more efficient to not piss off your subscribers and hold them as much as possible doing as less as possible than to let the project develop and use its age as a strength.

The "it will inevitably turn into a niche game over time" is a load of shit. The problem is, the core developers move on to new projects, companies cut back development costs and concentrate on other things.

In addition, when they do add new content it is rarely system content but more mobs/more lands/more grind. The carrot on a stick philosophy doesnt last long. It did with EQ but that was due more to lack of options.

By adding system content, you add additional methods of play and keep it interesting. It also doesnt help to update your graphics once in awhile (UO/Shadowbane/Many others).

Noooo but devs simply give us more of the same instead of adding in what we want. I want to fly a big fucking purple dragon that burns your castle down. I should be able to do that after paying 15 bucks a month for (insert number of years MMO has been out) but can I? Fuck no. I CAN kill 200 different colors of dragons that all give a sword with 50 diffent stats though... whoopie.

Many, MANY gamers are looking for a long term game that they will play for many years and be a part of something bigger than themselves... it's just that development companies and publishers always end up fucking it up one way or another. They either disenfranchise their core audience by breaking what was done right or loose the entire deal by pumping out more mindless dribble that is being done in every other game out there.

.

I don't know about the whole "scope" claim. I see it as being important for everyone to feel like they are a part of their "team" in the game. However to be honest I would rather play a game that is fun to play most all the time rather than a game that has shit game play yet offers a single unique dynamic every once and a while.

It's not like you take relics every day in DaoC. Sure it's nifty to the max to say omg my team kicks your teams ass but really that once a week reminder doesn't really excuse the rest of the game being pulp trash. They may have improved upon that side of the game some in ToA but I have not played since.

Eve is the same thing, I cannot imagine spending countless hours bored out of my skull just to prepare for that once in a blue moon gigantic battle. Sure that one battle might be fun as all fucking hell but if the rest of the game is dull I don't think I'll ever reach there.

WoW of course is nothing but a new and improved version of the same old EQ1 model. Instead of the grind from the getgo philosophy of EQ1 they instead make it much more accessible to the new player and then hit you with the OMGWTFBBQ ph4t l3wts and flagging shit at the end. I estimate they will gauge the popularity of this aspect of the game and if it seems to be hitting where they want it they will just farm out the expansion packs post haste just like EQ1. To be honest I never expected much more from Blizzard. They have always excelled at taking an existing idea and making a better version.

I will venture an estimate that there is nothing in WoW that can compare with a relic raid or a huge space battle from EVE. However I would rather have slightly less fun all of the time than suffer through endless boredom for that one sparkling moment of glory. I play MMORPGs to kick back and relax after work and hang out with RL friends who I never get a chance to see any more in RL. I don't want to have to tell myself that if I stay awake and stomach the boredom it will all be worth it. I don't give a shit about the orgasm if I have to tug on it til it bleeds rofl.

That all being said, I think WoW can pick up some of the better aspects of DaoC's RvR while maintaining its "more fun" regular game without straying too far off it's course of uber money acquirement. I honestly think WoW could include within its existing game a large number of niche features to venture into those markets and/or make its game play more interesting. The problem lies in whether or not Blizzard will make an effort to make what is unquestionably the "best" game on the market, or if they will just sit back, look at their huge cash pile and say "why bother".

I for one will be on those new servers,along with a bunch of other people I know.

from all games I played,I found DAoC Pre-ToA to be the most addictive PvP experience.sure it wasnt perfect,and sure it has its share of bad things..but the fun of the RvR was acceptable

then ToA came..And I didnt feel like grinding just to be able to compete in PvP,so I left.Then NF came and f****ed things up even more,and now cata has been released and brought some more imbalances to the already imbalanced RvR scene..

mythic will never learn..but atleast they have the guts to undo that crapload of sh*t called ToA and I will for sure be reactivating and rolling on those servers.

I can live with the new frontiers (OF ftw though :/) and with winlocks/bainshee's walking around,there are sufficient ways to counter them

Mythic shapeshifted their initial game which was rather PvE filled and had a rather hard grind to a more easy-with-pve game and improved certain aspects of the game (NF for sure added some good things; keep capturing is alot more interesting now.though I ruined things like emain) and with the addition of catacombs it removed alot of the PvE grind

the new servers will be good cause removing ToA removes the biggest PvE grind while Catacombs makes leveling easyer.On the other hand,removing toa also means removing Overpowered ML abilities and artifacts which made ML10 fullToA's overpowered in regards to everyone else.

conclusion: the new daoc servers are very interesting (as it undo's the crap that made me leave) and while still being not perfect,it becomes a whole lot more enjoyable again.So I actualy look alot forward to it,and will hopefuly keep playing it till Darkfall or Dark and Light comes around

DAoC is albeit still a fine game which is > then
Wow
GW
Lineage2
and the likes..:/

DAoC RvR always really appealed to me. But I played it a long time ago, and the grind was just awful. I quit right around the time they added the battlegrounds for lower levels, but was a little miffed when I found pickup groups = range standoffs. Most of my guild was higher than me when I quit, so grouping with people I knew was almost out of the question. And PvE was plagued with "not your class please."

My major gripe with WoW right now, and I've been vocal about this for a while, is that while the game is very palatable, getting a character to 60 is enjoyable, the world is so fucking dead. I mean, does anything mean anything in WoW? You win CtF, collect your item. You win the Alterac Battleground, wait til it refreshes and collect your item. For a series so predicated on constant Alliance vs Horde conflict, terroritorial conflict, in-fighting within races and sides, and what is basically an ever changing power structure, Thrall, Jaina, Sylvanas and the dwarf king haven't so much as taken a shit in 8 months.

It's a single player game with chat functions and the ability to play with some friends. It's only persistent in the fact that nothing ever changes.

If I could somehow combine every MMORPG out there taking only their best features, you'd have a game you could play nonstop for years on end for $40/month and never bat an eyelash.

Blizzard is so caught up on maximizing repeatable content that it ignores the fact that what makes Warcraft is, you know, the meaningful war aspect.

When I quote DAoC is as an example of a path to follow, not a model to clone. If the depth is just about a sporadic event it's just weak.

When I speak of "scope" I speak of a gameplay model that isn't completely focused on a combat simulation and that ties all the different elements of the game to create a complexity. I'm one of those that would love to see some RTS elements integrated with the PvP along with a more in-depth simulation of a medieval life. So systems that the players can use to have a role in the game instead of being just a sprite on a rendered background.

Eve-Online is an example of this type of development that moves on a different path than stretching a treadmill over and over. Instead of running you are down to manage stuff, relate to peoples, relate to the environment, create your own space and so on. The game isn't anymore an infinite conquest of "nothing" but a game space with its own personality that you can use and transform. It's not an utopia, we have concrete examples about this.

This doesn't mean that this game cannot have a fun combat, for example, but just that all the elements are used better in their potential. And the potential of the genre that should be far from being a console fighting game inside an online environment.


Yes, but the point here is what you consider a "meaningful war".

yeh but they changed it a bit though.
no more harsh death penalties that made you lose 40% if your xp at higher levels f.e
and with cata which allows you to level solo or in group (nomore forced grouping ^^) the PvE aspect has become more enjoyable

you can reach 50 in about 2 weeks or faster depending on how much you play ;)


aye,WoW's PvP is a very big letdown.
the only game on the market that offers good PvP is DAoC for me,WoW/GW/L2 are not an option.